Dec 092009
Don’t go to art school for photography.
If you go to school for anything, go for business. Or accounting. Or anything that will help the business side of things along and help you keep food on your table and a roof above your head.
The best way to learn is to go out there and do it. Learn on your own and assist other people, learn from them. Just keep rule number one in mind, see the previous post.
28 Responses to “Oh. Tip number two on life.”
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how can you know? you’ve never been to school for photography (as far as I know). that just kind of seems like an ignorant/cocky statement. I don’t mean any offense but I just find it pretty weak. If I’m not going to find my photography answers in school why am I finding it so hard to find them elsewhere? Maybe you can help me out. I’d love to hear where you think I should be taking my career as a photographer.
thanks a ton
-Mitch
360.961.5291
Here’s the thing, Mitch.
I’m not saying I know it all, as I certainly don’t, but every. single. photographer. I’ve talked to in the industry has said the exact. same. thing.
experience, not schooling, is what matters
Also note that I said “art school”. Portfolio schools are a different matter, I still may end up going to one. I went through the phase of considering schools, every single art school’s program came up short for what I wanted as someone who wanted to make a living in photography without wasting four years of time.
I have no idea what to say about your career, that’s not for me to say. I don’t know where you want to go, where you are now or what’s even really going on. Do I think an art school is for you? No, I don’t, especially as I imagine you’d rather take things in a more commercial direction.
The best schooling is the school that’s available in the real world. Take, for example, degrees people get in regular college. What are the odds of them using that specific degree in their eventual career choice? Slim. They learn a lot of things they need to know in real life situations. Same holds true in photography.
It also matters who you know. What isn’t good is approaching life as “who you know”, as you’ll simpy come across as trying to take advantage of people. That’s another topic, though.
my teacher said the exact. same. thing.
I halfway agree with what you said. Being a student enrolled in a photography program (fine art, non-commercial) I think it is extremely helpful to gain experience through the classroom. You will not get the same criticism on the internet for your images as you do in a classroom critique. On the internet people can pass up your images and never express to you why they don’t like your images, style, techniques, subjects, or whatever their reason may be; where in the classroom it is required.
There are too many photographers out there who don’t even know the basics of their cameras or even what the purpose is behind f-stops.
I have a business degree but I’m also working on my BFA in Photo to later get my MFA. It’s really about what type of photography you want to do and then how you want to use it in life.
I do agree with you though that is not necessary.
Couldn’t of said it any better.
Haaaaaaaah if I didn’t feel as if my next 4 years were wasted enough already!
I’d have to say i disagree with you. Since you haven’t went to a school for photography i wouldn’t go around telling people not to go. How would you know. As far as im concerned, you’re just a guy that picked up a camera and got some “okay” shots. I go to a photography school and it has made me grow as a photographer immensely. So to anyone out there wondering if they should go to school…..YES. Cause you’re gonna have an advantage and not be like this amateur. Get a degree!!
Hahahaha! matt’s comment is awesome. I wouldn’t take it to that extreme, but im in school with matt and he does have a valid point, In todays world if you can get an education and learn stuff as fast as we are your really going to have the upper hand in the up and coming photography world. For people who don’t learn like a machine like keaton it’s going to make a HUGE difference if you get into a photography school that teaches so many aspects.
P.S. Dont be completely arrogant like keaton. Your recent stuff looks so plain and boring dude. =)
It’s just Keaton’s opinion, let it be. You both shouldn’t go so overboard with your comments, you’re only making yourself look foolish. It is his blog after all and you both are choosing to read it. Although yes for some people going to school for Photography is a great choice and can help you further along your knowledge and career. But personally knowing Keaton I can say he is not arrogant and although he may have not went to school for Photography his knowledge of the aspects of it and technicalities of it are as if he has gone to school for it. He’s right going to school for business with practicing your photography, assisting with others, will help you as well in the long wrong, you need the business side of photography if you want to get somewhere.
P.S. Andy way to make yourself look like an immature douche with your last bit. If you’re going to critique someone, and you are going for a degree in photography you should know how to critique artwork correctly and not like a five year old.
Say what you wish, Matthew. Fact of the matter is I hear time and time again from people working in the industry and who have gone through schooling (art schools for photography) the same thing over and over again.
A friend recently told me he learned more in assisting a large commercial photographer for two months than he did in four years of schooling.
A commercial photographer in Orlando told me that the only things he gained in schooling was not in going to school but from the internships he did during that. I also got the impression that the general consensus is that schools like full sail are a bit of a joke in the industry, although I can’t comment directly on that.
So in the end, what I’m saying is that the absolutely best way to learn is working/assisting in the industry, not being in and out of a classroom for 4 years. Also note, in preparation for comments in response to that last sentence, I was exaggerating the classroom comment. I realize it’s not all classroom time.
And again, I’m not saying there aren’t good schools out there. As I mentioned in another comment, The Creative Circus really interests me.
And Andy, don’t go by a flickr when deciding anything about someone’s recent work. I’m working on a fourth portfolio section for my website right now, so I have a lot of documentary shots being posted. Plus, there’s a lot I don’t post on flickr, I’m not a fan of the site.
“Never let your schooling interfere with your education.” – Mark Twain
I’m really enjoying the debate going on here. Being a highschooler, I have to consider where I want to go to school/if I want to go to school. I want to “do photography” but I don’t know how to go about doing so. I like the idea of going to college for business and simply gaining experience in photography.
I guess I’ll just keep thinking about it. Thanks for the stimulating thoughts
PS- I find irony in the spelling and grammar mistakes among those supporting higher education.
I can see both sides of the argument. Everyone learns more in a work based setting regardless of what field you’re working in, however; I think having had been educated before-hand works best because you then apply what you learned to the real world setting. Having those “ohhh that’s why we learned that” moment. I don’t believe all art schools are worth it, I went to a school that basically accepts any portfolio and molds you into their ideal photographer so that you can work as soon as they send you off… horrible experience don’t do it. I’m in love with the school I go to now and find a good balance between classroom and real life sitation, so I wouldn’t go knocking all art schools. Also as a sidenote, if you don’t go to school you may never have one of those mentors that totally changes your life, I’ve been lucky enough to have two so far and they make all the difference!
I would have to agree with you keaton. im getting my aa in business currently, and ive toured a handful photography program in florida universities. one of the only pluses would be film photography for the use of there darkrooms ect, i think my time would be better invested in shooting on my own, and interning with commercial photographers. also with the thousands of dollars i would spend on three more years of school, i could invest that into new equipment and other expenses while interning ect.
but thats just how i feel about it. because i can read a book and go out and shoot and learn what i need to know from hands on experience/networking with others. but if you feel that having an instructor teach it to you is right for you then thats what you should do. keatons just trying to say that alot of people think its a waist because going to school for 4 years and having a degree in photography doesnt mean ur gona walk out of college and start shooting ad’s for nike. your still gona have to put time into getting urself known and your portfolio perfect. this shouldnt turn into some argument over whos right and whos wrong if your going to photo school then thats great for you but you should diss someone for not going to it because they want to learn through a hands on method.
Overall I have to disagree, though I definitely agree on some points and think for the most part it depends on the individual.
Now my experience is a little different than above, as I went to a graphics course, and I’m sure Aussie Universities differ largely from the US. Did I learn a lot in my 2yr course? Not really, no. I spent most nights working at home and learned more from experimenting and following tutorials from Scott Hansen etc.
BUT, that worked for me. Other people I’ve spoken to say that going to school helped them immensely in learning some finer details. And this is where it depends on the individual and how you learn.
Some people need to be told how to do something and the right way to do it, others simply just ‘do it’ until they get the result they want and learn from it.
Now, my girlfriend [who does the Synapse album photography] is about to start a 3yr Bachelor at RMIT – probably the best Photography course in Australia and from the sounds of her course outline I wish I was joining her.
She’s tried to get internships around Melbourne and the first question asked is ‘where did you study?’. If your answer isn’t RMIT or Photography Studies College you’re turned away almost immediately. Seems at least here that people are being driven down that path.
Back to her course – Leaders in Fashion [her desired career direction] will be on hand to assist on shoots and explain both sides of the business and artist directions. Not to mention “Photoshop Sessions” held by Australia’s representative for Adobe.
That’s just the first 6 months. Later on there’s focusing on all subjects you can imagine, allowing students to focus digitally or film [or both]. That’s about all I can remember from memory.
I think her photography is brilliant already (http://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/1232516) and I can’t wait to see what she can do once she learns a bit more from some seasoned pro’s.
Just my 2cents.
Keaton i’m very much on your side. Investing in an “art school” for photography is a waste. There has to be a big difference between your classmates and teachers reviewing your work and a client holding a check book. From a business stand point, schooling is a huge risk. You can learn so much more at a seminar or workshop. A one day $200 seminar changed my life. I truly believe i learned a semester of school in one day after talking to a few photography students.
I have a weird self taught exception. Getting a digital slr in 2004 gave me a crazy edge. Luck plays a huge roll in my career. All I did was read the manual until I knew what every setting did….half the photography students i have talked to haven’t done that. Its sad.
My digital career wasn’t popular at the time, right Keaton?? haha
I agree with Keaton. I also agree with you who disagree with Keaton. In my opinion, I believe it depends on the person and their ability to learn certain things at different paces and levels. For example, if a person is rather business savvy and the business side of things comes easily, but the photography side doesn’t, then photography school may be a good route. If a person is a photography savvy person and lack the business knowledge, then they might go to school for business. If you lack both, then you might want to attend a school that offers both and do a major in one, a minor in the other.
I grew up in a family where my father ran his own business, still does. I learned a lot about business from him. What I didn’t learn from him, I learned by doing my research, getting out there and learning by my mistakes (which is the most bittersweet way to go about it) and from those I surround myself around. My uncle was a professional photographer and I learned a lot from him. What I didn’t learn from him, I learned from research, experimenting, trial and error and surrounding myself by people that inspire and help me. On top of that, I am the type of person who learns at my own pace and I learn what I want to learn. If something doesn’t apply to what I am trying to do, I won’t take the time to learn it at first, unless I’ve already learned what I need. I’m sure photography/art school is great for some and horrible for others. I’ve heard great success stories and I’ve heard terrible horror stories.
I don’t think going to photography/art school can hurt your photographic vision, but I can see how it may set you back since it’s a on schedule. On the other hand, not going may set you back by someone lack of ability to learn quickly on their own.
By all means, I do not think photography/art students have an advantage on those who don’t when it comes to the technology, business or industry itself. It’s forever changing and we all have to learn together. Sure, right now, this second, a student may have an upper hand at some of those, but in a year from, hell, even 3 months from, things will change. Students may have an advantage on those who aren’t in school by using the schools equipment and being able to build a portfolio from that gear that you may not of been able to use otherwise.
All in all, once again, in my opinion, I think that if you need photography school, go for it. If don’t, good for you. If you’re on the edge, take time, research, visit the schools, visit all your options and again, take your time. Don’t rush into something that will cause you be hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans.
And if you’re wondering, I went to college for graphic design and changed my mine. I learned a lot there, but not enough to justify the loans I am going to be paying off until I am 35, BUT it does give me a sense of security knowing that I have something to fall back on.
I honestly think it depends on the person and how they learn.
I personally like when I figure things out on my own and I feel just a tad under pressure when someones ‘teaching’ me. I know Keaton told me that he never heard anything to great about the art institute once when we had this same conversation via e-mail. But as far as in concerned I think its a really good prgram. We learn the concepts and apply those to a series of projects -both in studio and on location- from a professor whose shot big time artists (seen his work). Also there’s a mandatory internship along with portfolio direction and also business classes in the plan. That’s pretty legit if you ask me.
My thing is I want a great mentor and also I’ve always heard to get your degree. there’s talk of assisting photographers and internships..and that’s all included at the school I want to attend. I know th degree isn’t necessary in the photography world but if freelancing doesn’t exactly take off how I want or goes downhill, I always have that degree to fall back on.
As far as learning myself, ill be setting up my own promo shots and whatnot on my on time, going to shows and networking by myself as well. Setting up my own shoots and going out and doing for myself as well in addition to school. So ill learn just as much as someone who doesn’t go to school and a tad more in my opinion.
Keaton, I like your work. And people shouldn’t be making this a negative thing. To each their own.
Well put Brett. “sense of security knowing that I have something to fall back on” that’s my main thing in this whole schooling aspect. If it weren’t for that I wouldn’t worry about it.
The average age of the non-musician who sees a photo if mine is 16 or 17, because I primarily work with pop artists/MySpace scene kids. I’m asked at least once a week about going to school for photography. I’ve always recommended the same as Keaton – majoring in something like business or marketing, and perhaps minoring in photography or taking a few classes if they’re available. For years I’ve felt that getting a degree in a creative will never guarantee that you are talented…it just means that you have been taught skills, and it’s then up to you to use them well or not. I’m fortunate enough to have a boyfriend in marketing, so he can help me out with some of the business stuff that I have NO clue about…but I would like to be able to know those things/do those things on my own.
I always planned on being a graphic designer. In 2004 I went to The Art Institute of Minnesota for graphic design…for two months. I then went to a technical college for graphic design…for three months. I hated both. I had already been doing freelance work, and have continued to do so over the past five years after dropping out (I branched off into photography part way through). I’ll never claim to be an awesome graphic designer (especially now that I don’t do much with it), but I’m able to accomplish what needs to be done for my clients. For both design and photography, I have been self-taught. I follow other artists, read/watch tutorials, use Google like it’s practically my Bible, and I’m just all-around observant of everything around me. Granted, not everyone learns best in that type of environment, and some people NEED hands-on teaching/training…but again, no piece of paper will guarantee true artistic talent.
It really does all depend on what kind of work you’re looking for. If you’re going to get a job for a huge company where a degree is REQUIRED, then yeah, it makes sense to get a degree in that. Many people reading/responding to this, though, work in the entertainment industry. I can safely say that I have never been asked by a potential client to see my photography degree before booking a shoot.
How many band dudes that you know have gotten degrees in guitar/bass/percussion/vocal/screaming/synth performance?
PS – Ugh I hate typos and the fact that I can’t edit my comment!
PPS – I also agree with everything that Brett said.
PPPS – Keaton, you should go to culinary school so you can learn how to make good cookies.
I completely understand what you’re saying, Keaton. Knowing a lot about photography isn’t going to make you money. Even having great work won’t necessarily get you anywhere. If you want to make money, you need to know business. Period.
However, I don’t think you should tell people to not go to school for photography. When you’re passionate about something, you want to know everything you can about it. If you don’t learn anything about the technical aspects of photography, you’re going to learn about it’s history at the least. I’d bet you’re going to have a lot more fun in learning too. It’s probably more beneficial (money wise) to go to school for business, but not all artists are about the money. You should definitely have some experience in the matter before telling people whether or whether not to go to school for photography!
That being said, it is all about getting out there and doing it. A teacher can talk all day about photography, but you aren’t going to walk out a good photographer. It’s all about practice. I learned 99% of what I know outside of school.
PS – Those kids obviously are jealous of your work. What a joke.
Another point I thought of. What courses are you referring to where kids just get in?
The Bachelor at RMIT is 80% mature age students, with only a small faction getting through from High School.
This is due to a rigorous portfolio crit and interview.
Ah, so much to possibly respond to here that I can’t without a ridiculously long response. I will admit that I didn’t think about people needing different ways to learn. However, if one can find that mentor through assisting a photographer (or several), I still think that will be more beneficial than schooling. Of course, not everyone can do this, but still.
Terrod, the thing is that’s an art degree you’re referring to falling back on. Am I mistaken or would prospective employers view that differently than a normal degree? It likely would be better than nothing, but I personally would view it differently than a degree from a regular college, since I know the courses are completely different.
And Jesse, my posts are about making a career in photography. Sure, not all artists are about the money, but that’s not what I’m talking about.
Brittany saying keaton’s recent flickr posts are boring isn’t me critiquing them. Thats just my personal opinion. A lot of keatons work is amazing, i just am not a big fan of a lot of the recent images. Thats all im saying. Stop get all worked up about nothing, i can have my opinions and you have yours. calling me a 5 year old douche makes you look really good yourself.
=)
Ansel Adams ate bananas everyday
I’m partial about this whole situation, mostly because I am a photo major. But let’s face it, in any situation with photography and being known is about who you know or who youre associated with, my Dad for example, is a well respected graphic designer and is all self taught, He however pushes me to go to college so I wouldn’t have a disadvantage in a professional situation if it occured. So, for me I think having a degree will help me (hopefully) in the long run because I don’t want to be taking pictures of bands my whole life, I need something that will support me financially so in that case I agree with Sara with working for a bigger company. Also, I’ve been in school for almost two years now (art school and regular college) and I’ve learned a lot, not as much as I hoped, I’ll be honest. I wasted a year in art school learning the basics about art in general. I went in debt. Life goes on. I’ve just started this year to really learn about photography, not just digital but film as well. It’s interesting, you don’t get the same education with reading books I feel like. I personally hate reading. I’m also very opinionated and I’ve realized that pasionate photographers are all like that. So yeah, if that made sense then party on.
This subject has been beaten to death, but I agree 100%. about to graduate from the art institute of seattle. The best class I ever took was taking the summer off to intern for a high end commercial photog in san diego. won’t mention the name, but got to work on the set on marlboro, sears, etc.. plenty of huge brands. learned more in the first 2 weeks working for him than I have in 2 years at school (just there to make the parents happy, ya know?).
On the shoots I talked to some of the art directors. Out of interest, I asked how many of them cared about a photo degree. 10 times out of 10, they all said the same thing, art degrees don’t matter, it’s about what you can do. They represent some of the biggest ad agencies in the world.
The average photography college graduate has no idea what they’re going to do, how they’re going to make money, or how they’re gonna pay off that 55-75k loan. Please, save yourself a lifetime of student loans and don’t go to school for photography.
Honestly, the easiest way to start off in the photo industry is to pick up the phone and work/assist for people. Amazing how many people just won’t be able to do that, it seems to hard for some. Instead, they try to take the easy way out and go to art school, hoping the degree and career services will get them photography jobs. Good luck..
I can only speak for my school, but most of the teachers haven’t been shooting commercially since the 80s and keep teaching the same things they’ve been doing during the 80s. So much of what’s being taught is out dated, and right now, the photography industry is looking for fresh/new/creative/innovative work.